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Debate the Iron heads VS out of the box After market heads comparison

  
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Debate the Iron heads VS out of the box After market heads comparison

 
Budnicks Budnicks
Guru | Posts: 1497 | Joined: 08/10
Posted: 11/08/10
09:12 PM

I know this subject has been beaten to death but, I want to see real numbers from someone who has done the comparison on a dyno, flow bench, or track real world not imaginary numbers. I am biast after spending $3000+ on iron heads & not getting the power I did from out of the box $900-2500 bolt on aftermarket heads of various kinds so I will let the others chime in that have the the knowlage to speak to this & hopefully put to rest the misconceptions on factory iron fully ported heads HIGH cost what is the best factory heads to port or run VS aftermarket bolt on HEADS (Big block & small blocks) please include cost of labor if any & parts to make a unbiast comparison, any dyno or head porter guys out there any thaughts on the mater will be well recieved. thank you in advance  Cool  Grin  Laugh  Budnicks  
"Fill Your Library Before You Fill Your Garage" Good Luck  "Budnicks"

IQ52 IQ52
Guru | Posts: 858 | Joined: 06/10
Posted: 11/09/10
11:17 AM

So that's what you want huh, Budnicks?

Okay here is a first installment.

Test (1)  Stock factory SB iron 1.88/1.60 casting # 3769974, cleaned and milled.
Test (2)  Same as (2) + 11/32 bronze guides, 2.02/1.60 +.100" SS Chevy valves.
Test (3)  Same as (3) + moderate bowl and guide porting.
Test (4)  Box stock Edelbrock Perf. RPM 340 aluminum.
Test (5)  Same as (4) but the flows are from Stan Weiss' web site.
Test (6)  Out of the box Indy/RHS 360X Iron head.

         Test (1)         Test (2)      Test (3)   Test (4)   Test (5)   Test (6)
           I/EX             I/EX          I/EX          I/EX          I/E        I/EX

.100"      58/50         65/50      66/50        61/        61/53        57/52
.200"     115/92     132/103    135/106    122/       121/101    124/105
.300"     173/132    184/131    192/156    172/       173/135    184/
.400"     202/143    207/143    231/197    206/       212/155    230/
.500"     208/145    210/146    237/201    228/       235/164    255/
.550"     202/146    213/148    237/204                            
.600"                                                    237/       247/168     257/201
.700"                                                                 246/168     249/208

All flows are in CFM @ 28"

Tests (1), (2) & (3) were ported and flowed last night (11-08-2010) on our bench and the exhausts were tested with a tube.

Test (4) was performed about 6 years ago on our bench.

Test (5) exhaust were without a tube.

Test (6) Tested on our bench in July of 2010. Exhaust flows with tube.

The approximate cost of set of the mildly ported 3769974 factory iron heads, with the 2.02/1.60 SS valves, as in Test (3) with valve springs, seals, 10 degree retainers and locks, for a cam like Comp Cams XE275HL 231/237 @ .050, .525"/.525" lift, would be $1350.

The cost of a set Edelbrock Performer RPM 340 heads from three different web sites is, $1475.90, $1433.00 & $1429.74.

I've found prices for the assembled Indy/RHS 360X heads to be $975-1,219. For the flow they seem to be the bargain of the group.

If you have the facilities and abilities to do the modifications on the factory iron heads yourself, you can save a considerable amount of money and get flows approximating those of a box stock aluminum or iron aftermarket head.  

Budnicks Budnicks
Guru | Posts: 1497 | Joined: 08/10
Posted: 11/09/10
01:41 PM

IQ52 thanks for the information you did a great assesment on small blocks, it seems to me unless you are under some rules restrictions about useing iron/factory heads or restoring a car the aftermarket is financialy the better move, lighter, less time, better flow in the long run more power & drivability, I think head porters & dyno tech.'s are god sends, atleast in my racing experiances & if not for them racing would NOT have advanced as far as it has, I personaly would rather pay equal dollars for a better part then improve that part ALA have the porter work thier magic on those, I'm not a porter or a dyno tech. just a old racer who has been there & can't stand to see people who don't know say something is just as good when it obviosly is'nt. Thanks again IQ52 thats alot of work on your part to help proove a point. What about a Magnum 5.9 or Magnum R/T head are they comperable with the 340/360 LA heads in flow?  Cool  Budnicks  
"Fill Your Library Before You Fill Your Garage" Good Luck  "Budnicks"

IQ52 IQ52
Guru | Posts: 858 | Joined: 06/10
Posted: 11/09/10
02:44 PM

In the tests that I have seen, the Magnums are generally comparable to the LA heads. But Magnums, even with the small 1.92 intake, seem to have a slight advantage in the mid-range lifts. I would guess this is attributable to a better short turn and bowl shape. I personally have not tested a Magnum head.  

Budnicks Budnicks
Guru | Posts: 1497 | Joined: 08/10
Posted: 11/09/10
03:01 PM

IQ52 thank you for the info, thats interesting, the LA head has been a mainstay for 273/318/340/360 SB's for years but getting much harder to find, there are alot of 5.2/318 & 5.9/360 Magnum heads out there now, thanks again for sharing your knowlage, Budnicks  
"Fill Your Library Before You Fill Your Garage" Good Luck  "Budnicks"

kissimmeeBbody kissimmeeBbody
User | Posts: 210 | Joined: 08/08
Posted: 11/09/10
05:01 PM

All the flow #'s for BB heads is in the tech section: Heads Part I, II, III. Have not seen #'s for Stock Eddys or 440 Source. Indy and other suppliers have CNC programs for these heads not sure of the flow numbers or who has the best.  

IQ52 IQ52
Guru | Posts: 858 | Joined: 06/10
Posted: 11/09/10
06:54 PM

Some of this information is in other posts around these forums but I will gather it up somewhat in this post. All these tests were run on our flowbench in the past two years. I'm just supplying the intake flows.

Test (1)   Box stock Edelbrock Performer RPM 440
Test (2)   Box stock 440 Source Stealth
Test (3)   Best ported Edelbrock Performer RPM 440
Test (4)   Best ported factory iron 906


        Test (1)      Test (2)      Test (3)      Test (4)

.100"       73            66             84             83
.200"     148           142           158           158
.300"     209           205           215           206
.400"     254           240           252           250
.500"     276           255           299           289
.600"     287           267           328           326
.700"     291           268           341           342
.770"                                                      346
.800"                                     349


There is a better description of the Edelbrock/Stealth comparison, right now on page 9 of ACTIVE POSTS titled: 440 Source Stealth Heads. Yes, I used to post under heyoldguy. My shorts got twisted in a knot and I was feeling nasty mean so I quit for awhile.

The Edelbrocks and the 906 heads were not a CNC program, they were hand ported.  

Budnicks Budnicks
Guru | Posts: 1497 | Joined: 08/10
Posted: 11/09/10
09:51 PM

IQ52 or heyoldguy I like IQ52 better beacuse your not as old as me so that would make me wayoldguy LOL, anyway thank you verry much for the flow numbers on the ported 906's & Eddy's Perfomers, what kind of labor & parts cost are you talking to get a set of heads to this level, I know what I have spent in the past I'm just curious, the last set I had fully ported was back in 1998 by a reputible Co. in Sacto., again thank you verry much I know your are helping alot of us not as knowlagable as you in this relm of performance, have you ever flowed a set of Mopar 62-64 Max Wedge Stage III's or Mopar Stage V cast iron heads, also Eddy Victors Max Wedge ports or Mopar Stage VI Max Wedge ports Aluminum heads, for comparison sake I refreshed the post 440 Stealth Heads.  Thank you in advance for sharing your knowlage.    Grin  Cool  Laugh  Budnicks  
"Fill Your Library Before You Fill Your Garage" Good Luck  "Budnicks"

Budnicks Budnicks
Guru | Posts: 1497 | Joined: 08/10
Posted: 11/10/10
10:39 PM

IQ52 I was browsing the Mopar perf.Cat.& noticed that the CNC Ported Stage VI ALM. heads with std. ports (W/2.14"/1.81" in./ex.valve)flow @ 28" better on average of 6 to .400" lift Max Wedge 290/211 in./ex. compaired to std. port 283/211 in./ex. then above .500" lift MW-330/233>std-325/233 the Max Wedge (W/2.25"/1.81" in./ex. valve) style port is higher, then .600" MW-364/242>std-351/242, .700" MW-375/252>std-351/252, .750" MW381/260 all intake/exhaust respectivly, are these real #'s or inflated ,the exhaust is the same on both style ports std. & MW. Just wanted to put these #'s up & see if this can actualy be done, the #'s seem inflated to me. sorry I tried a different format but it kept messing up I hope you can understand these #'s. Budnicks  
"Fill Your Library Before You Fill Your Garage" Good Luck  "Budnicks"

IQ52 IQ52
Guru | Posts: 858 | Joined: 06/10
Posted: 11/11/10
12:07 AM

I think I've figured out what you were saying.

Two Stage VI cylinder heads CNC ported. One with 2.14/1.81 valves & standard port size, the other with 2.25/1.81 valves & Max Wedge size ports.

The standard port outflows the Max Wedge to .400" and the Max Wedge takes over from there.

To the question. It is possible for that head to flow that much. Chapman is suppose to get 364 cfm @ .600" and 375 cfm @ .700" with 2.25/1.81 valves. BJR Racing is said to get 362 @ .600", 373 @ .700" and 393 @ .800 with 2.14/1.81 valves. Both Chapman and BJR were Max Wedge size ports. I have three Stage VI heads on the shelf but have not done any extensive testing yet. I felt when the Victor came out that I had a better starting point and better intake manifold choices with them than the Stage VI. We have sent out some mildly ported, standard port, Stage VI's in the range of 310 cfm @ .600".

Now having said that, I remind you, you cannot race flowbenches. You can compare different port jobs on the same bench, but you cannot compare different porting jobs on different benches. You can get an idea how the flow benches compare if you have a standard to measure by. That is why I try to list how my bench sees the flow of a box stock Edelbrock Performer RPM 440. Almost everyone has flowed that head on their bench and that will tell them how my bench compares to theirs. I believe you already know this so I say this, not for you, but for others who may be reading this post.  

Budnicks Budnicks
Guru | Posts: 1497 | Joined: 08/10
Posted: 11/11/10
10:41 AM

IQ52 Yes you are correct on your assumptions on my posting, I just saw them as inflated have'nt seen those other #'s, that's good to know, I kind of thaught flow benchs were  somewhat equal as long as they use the same flow, I did here what you are saying before from another person I realy didn't believe, maybee I should have, I'm a proove it to me kind of guy, I always used the track to prove stuff, now I don't have the resources so I have to do my reasurch otherways. Thanks again for your time & effort, Budnicks  
"Fill Your Library Before You Fill Your Garage" Good Luck  "Budnicks"

drmopar drmopar
Guru | Posts: 1445 | Joined: 02/08
Posted: 11/11/10
05:13 PM

So much for the aluminum heads. I can also attest that 452's will out flow the two aluminum heads.
Not sure about the LA heads compared to aluminum. However they respond very well to a mild porting with a reduction in chamber volume. You need to have them planed .040 thousands, anymore and you run into alignment problems with the alt. bolt holes and the intake.  

IQ52 IQ52
Guru | Posts: 858 | Joined: 06/10
Posted: 11/11/10
05:54 PM

What?

I can attest that the 273 head with the 1.78/1.50 valves will make more horsepower than the Max Wedge with the 2.08/1.88 valves, but I'm gonna have a hard time making a rational defense of my attestation.

What data do you have on the 452 head out performing the Edelbrock or the Stealth?  

IQ52 IQ52
Guru | Posts: 858 | Joined: 06/10
Posted: 11/12/10
02:21 AM

The last time we tested a stock 452 head was around January of 2005. I can't find the first tests with the stock valves, so, I did another test last night.


Test (1) Stock 452 with bronze guides, 2.08/1.74 valves & three angle valve job.
Test (2) Same 452 head but with addition of 2.14/1.81 SS valves, no bowl work.
Test (3) Same as (2) but with the bowl porting.


               Test (1)       Test (2)       Test (3)
                 I/EX            I/EX            I/EX

.100         61/55          64/56           67/60

.200       130/108       133/114       137/130

.300       188/152       187/149       199/187

.400       213/172       211/166       239/218

.500       227/178       224/170       256/234

.600       230/181       229/171       262/245

.700                                             265/253


Exhaust flows were tested with a pipe.

See the real shocker? If you just add 2.14/1.81 valves and do no bowl work, you actually lose flow after .200" lift on both the intake and exhaust. You just wasted your money! Make sure if you have someone install bigger valves, that they know what they are doing!

Test (3) The cost of porting the 452 to flow like above, will be around $450-$550. Then you add the cost of the rebuildable head castings, cleaning, milling, valves and their installation, guides and their installation, springs, retainers, locks, seals and assembly of everything. I hope you know guess what! You still don't have a head that flows as well as an out of the box Edelbrock or Stealth.

Don't get me wrong, the 452 is a good head and the Test (3) head will make 550HP. If you just prefer the iron heads, ain't nuttin' wrong with that.

And now it is bed time for 52IQer.  

drmopar drmopar
Guru | Posts: 1445 | Joined: 02/08
Posted: 11/12/10
05:39 AM

My experience with 906 VS. 452's. Removed ported, polished 906 heads with large valves. Installed ported and polished 452's, with the same large 2.14/1.81 valves.
Car picked up three tenths and three miles pr. hr. in a 67 B body. No flow numbers just 1/4 mile testing.
All work was done by a profesional race shop, DSE automotive.
The 440 was equipped with, 509 mopar cam, holley 850 dp, torqer intake, 2" hooker race headers. 10-1 compression 3500 converter with 4.30 gears.
Not only were the 452's 3 miles pr. hr. quicker, the car's 60 ft., & 1/8 mile times all improved. No other changes were made.  

Both the machine shop and I were very surprised but the huge improvement in ET.
 Cool  

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