Chevy guy switching to Mopar.

Hi: I am new to the ranks of Mopar and have been a Chevy guy most of my life. I am selling my 72 vette this spring and making a Mopar my next project. Tired of overpriced corvettes. I have always been impressed with the Mopar performance from 340s up to 440s in the late 60s - early 70s and have been gathering information for a big block Mopar purchase in the spring. I did some research on the engines and was very impressed by an article in September 2002 of Mopar Muscle on the build up of a stock 383 to 450hp by just swapping cam, headers, intake and carb. My 383 stroker is near this in my vette after $4,000 on investment. The other article I read in the same magazine was a build up on a 440 which should be 375 hp stock and the 383 33h hp) The 440 had new aluminum edelbrock heads added, intake, headers carb and cam and came up to 457 hp. Did I miss something here? Shouldn't the 440, even without the heads still be pushing 40 hp more than the 383 and I would think around 90 more HP with the heads added. Is it common that the 383 with a little work can actually out perform a 440? I was always under the impression that the 440 was a screamer with a ton of torque and the big block of choice? Can anyone explain this to me? The articles I refer to are"383 resto to rad"  by  Steve Dulcich on page 20 and "A back to basics 440" by Herb McCandless on page 78 of the Sept 2002 magazine.

Thanks

Confused

Factory ratings of the 60's are different than 72 and up ratings. But very good question on the difference between the resto to rad article on both the 383 and 440. The 383 was not just a bunch of parts just thrown at it. It was a blueprinted engine with the right parts inside. Look at the deck height of the KB's in the 383. 383 pistons are lighter than 440 boat anchor pistons. Look at the camshaft in the 383, it's a Comp special HIGH_LIFT design. Not the smaller 230 @ .050 cam in the 440. The 440 streetable, the 383, questionable. Since it cost the same to build both, why not build the biggest engine for the most return on the dollar. Speaking of Herb, why not a 630hp 360??? Also, in stock form, the 383 and the stock size valves are a factor, the same heads on a 440 is actually choking itself to death. Thats why in stock form a 440 will out torque a 383 anyway. If both of these engines were built in the same scientific fashion, you would be surprised at the results. I'm sure the 440 would be 50hp more and more than 50 footpounds of torque more than the 383 just because of the cubic inch difference. If you are going to compare, look at the build, they are totally different. Besides, Herb can set you up with a 740hp stroked 400 anyday!

Actually dependent on year the 383 and 440 both have the same heads, same valves and same camshaft with the 383 having a HP rating of 330 HP and the 440 having 375 HP!  

I already know this, the chivy guy don't.

Thanks for the insight on the 383 vs 440 buildup. My current shopping involves a 440 Challenger or Cuda. You sound like you have the experience to answer a question. Have you ever compared the cost and effort to buy a 318 or 6 banger and replace the engine with a 440 compared to buying the same vehicle with the 440 already in it? I know that it depends on the vehicle, but I am always leary of buying a hot rod that someone has run the snot out of compared to installing either a used 440 or a reputable rebuilt 440 and modifying the cam, intake, carb, exhaust and maybe heads myself. How difficult is it to find a decent 440? I have built Chevy engines from the short block up, but never replaced pistons and crank and have seen used 440's for $200-$500, rebuilt 440s from $1,500 (plus $250 core) or a PAW performance package for under $3,000 to a 360 380hp crate engine for $3,800. Have you purchased or built any big block Mopars like this?  

Yes I have compared the cost. The best 440 A-bodys to drop in 440's and 383's are the 318 and slant six cars.  They are stiffer from less torque. The worst are 4-speed cars because of the intial shock that is induced from dropping the clutch. B-bodys the same. Automatics give a lesser fatigue shock to the unibody. I have talked many times to a stress engineer at Cessna, he clued me in on the stress when it comes to the amount of cycles stress is induced. I really don't buy anybody elses project unless I throughly look at the work they have done. For hotrods, build the biggest motor you can afford, meaning, if you to spend 4800.00 bucks on a motor, would you spend it on a smallblock? That kind of money could easily put a 440 in the 500hp range if you already have the block,crank, rods. Figure 1600bucks for a short block,machined and all. Figure 1400 for some aluminum heads. It really depends if you want the aluminum heads or not, if you have good cores. The rest for headers, manifold, carb. I don't buy crate motors, I've been building my own since 1972. The used cores are from about 400 and up here in Wichita. Hope this helps, if you like old mopars, please visit my site at http://kansasbadman.com     

Thanks for the advice. I really would like to build my own rather than buy an engine that someone else has gone through. I just don't trust some of the "recently rebuilt" engines I see in ads. I wasn't clear from your response if you are recommending buying a short block that has been worked (ie bored over etc) if so, do you recommend any vendors, or if you are recommending finding a 440 block at a junk yard or for sale and taking it into a machine shop and having them do the bottom end work? If you are recommending getting a used 440 short block/complete engine, I assume you would recommend having it magna fluxed for cracks before I bought it? What about heads? Would you recommend having stock heads ported or buying after market from someone like Edelbrock? I know the aluminum heads are about twice the cost, but I think you can get some good results with a set of ported iron heads. You certainly don't have all the parts resources for a big block Mopar that there is out there for a small block chevy, but I really don't want another hot rod that is the same thing everyone else has.

Thanks

Gary

Alright Gary, where do you live? Muscle Motors sell used blocks, Ray Braton sells used blocks, Hughes engines sells blocks, so does PAW. And they won't sell you one that cracked. I would say if you could buy one that runs out of a car, you could do a little diagnosis on it before you tear it down to rebuild. On the cast iron heads, remember what I said, they are kind of short on a 440 but you can make them flow if you put a lot of time in them by porting. I have roughly 1600 bucks in a set of 915 heads and to be honest, I wished I would have bought the Ederbrock heads since they come with all the good parts and flow more than the stock heads. When it comes to the machining, yes, you must have it magnafluxed before you spend any money in it! I recommend that you talk to some of these people before you spend any money first. They can help tell you whats all involved in a Mopar. I love building my own, it's a pride thing, and I'm sure there is alot of people who buy a short block, you just have to weigh the cost vs labor. Good luck, I might know someone in your area who does this if you can give me an idea where you live.

Thanks for the input, I live just outside of Grand Rapids, Michigan, about halfway between Grand Rapids and Kalamazoo. I have just orderd the new Chrysler cataloge from PAW as I have seen 440 kits in their general cataloge I really would like to build one from scratch. The prices aren't bad either whether a short or long block. I appreciate the advice, especially on the heads. I know with GM that their Vortec heads are very strong flowing cast Iron and about half the cost of what aluminum heads run. But I also know from my last project that a good flowing set of heads is a tremendous benefit to HP. I just need to learn more on the Mopar side. I have orderd a couple of Mopar engine books including How to rebuild Big-Block Mopar Engines and Big-block Mopar Performance:High Performance and Racing Modifications for B and Rb Series engines. At this point, I am not sure what vehicle I would look for, but a nice slant six Dart would be a good start to a very fast 440 Mopar. Sounds like the short block form PAW with the right internal components (looks like they offer piston,crank and cam options) with a good set of Edelbrock aluminum heads would be a nice start. Any advice on my first ground up build would be appreicated. Once I get the crank and pistions in, I would be in familar territory. And it will be nice to have the distributor in the front for a change!

Gary

Ok Gary, Mancini Racing in Roseville, Michigan. Tele is 586-790-4100  give these guys a call. They used to stock 440 blocks and they currently sell all the stuff you need to big a bigblock.Big Block High Performance is Chuck Senatore, he is the onwer of Muscle Motors, I can't find his number. They are a complete Mopar machine shop and have blocks ect.  Indy Cylinder head is someone you can call too. I know they have a website.I recommend also going to BigBlockDart.com they have many big block darts and the people their are great helping each other out. Here's something to think about. Take the fastest B-or E-body and put all the go fast parts in a A-body, now you have a car that is faster than any factory mopar. A-bodies are a 1000lbs lighter! Let me know what you find out. Good Luck

Thanks for all of your help. I am really looking forward to building my first Mopar this spring. The vette is going to go and I should have enough cash to do whatever I want without having to explain to the wife why I need a few more bucks. I am going to start looking for that clean slant 6 Dart that I can build my own 440 for. And do some engine shopping. I am curious to price some of this out as I think the PAW 440 package I saw was pretty reasonable and with some homework, I should be ready to put it all together.

Thanks a lot!

Gary

Hello,

  just to let you know, swaping from a slant six, to a big block in a B-body, is more then what everyone will tell you...but here`s some help....

  Your going to first have to change the K mamber, then swap the a-arms, the power steering box will have to be changed, new torsion bars to handle the weight of the big block..and a 727 big block transmission, the 904 that is in it in won`t  handle the power..

 I know from experience, I swaped a small block out of a ddart, and put it into a duster..so kind of know what your going to be up against...

  But it can be done, and has been done..Anyway, GOOD LUCK..and once your done, get some wheelie wheels, your going to need them...hahaha

                          Steve---loggerdriver---

hmmmm....not sure about the k-member swap anymore.  I have seen motor mount kits to prevent from having to do this anymore.  Try MP for these mounts.  

I have used muscle motors... more on that later.. Chuck is no longer invloved with muscle motors.

There are two schools of thought in building non-hemi based mopars BB.

Low deck 383/400 also known as "B" blocks and 440 or "RB" also refered to as high deck..  Many people prefer to stroke "B" blocks. They have shorter piston sleaves than a 440 and slightly larger bore. With a little light clearancing you can get 500 inches easily from a 400 "B" block.

It has a relativly short stroke 4.15" and a 4.375 - 4.385 bore. Kit are avaialble for this combo everywhere that deal with mopar. Chuck ( formerly of muscle motors ) prefered this method and I can tell you it works great as I am running it in my 68 barracuda. This combo with some indy SR heads and a mild cam will propell you into the mid to high 10's at around 700hp.

440 builds are done in about the same way but more options are available in terms of better blocks fuel injection and intakes.

Mate that all up with a keisler overdrive tranny with a hydrolic clutch and you have one fun ride.

440 source.com will tell you all you need to know about big block mopars, its a great site and very informative,good luck