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72 or 73 Dart?

  
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72 or 73 Dart?

 
DQ81 DQ81
New User | Posts: 13 | Joined: 11/08
Posted: 11/11/08
04:20 PM

Hi there.

I'm looking at buying a Dodge Dart with a 318cui, Hooker Headers, true duals with flowtech raptors.

In any case, something is baffling me about this vehicle;

It has the tail lights of a '72,i.e. four rectangular lenses.

However it has the headlights, rectangular front turn signals, grille and pointed front end of a '73. I like it, I'm just curious as to what I'm dealing with.

After having the car on the lift I can't find any traces of welding or chassis damage etc.

Anyone ever heard of this before as a factory thing or am I most likely lookng at a conversion?

Some pics:

73Dartleftfront

73Dartrear

73Dartfront

TIA

David  

RBolig RBolig
Moderator | Posts: 948 | Joined: 12/03
Posted: 11/12/08
09:02 AM

Since the car has apparently been repainted, maybe someone changed the front end would be my guess.  
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Some people are like Slinkys; they're not very useful, but fun to watch when pushed down the stairs.

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/12/08
11:54 AM

my opinion is its a 73. you can always decode the vin number that would tell you what it is as well.  

DQ81 DQ81
New User | Posts: 13 | Joined: 11/08
Posted: 11/12/08
04:20 PM

Hi thanks guys,

I decoded the VIN, it's a '73, I guess an early '73 with those tail lights. I'm happy about that though as I like them better than the lights that came on the 73 and up models, also more trunkspace!

On my testdrive of the vehicle other than a few minor things I noticed a sound coming from what seems like the trans.

It's sounds like a marble bouncing or a bouncy hit of a spoon on a tin can. It only make one or two ticks and then als fine. It shifts a little late but the linkage could be off. It has a 318 in it now and came origionally with a slant six.

Almost like the shift linkage is hitting the exhaust. It happens when I apply throttle and when I brake/lift throttle.

Someone on Abodies mentioned the u-joints on the driveshaft which I'll check for clearance asap but I'm wondering if there are any other options internally. Also every so often there's a whirling sound...I'll try and capture it and post a video of the sounds.

Also does anybody know where to look on the engine blok to get it's serial/model number so I know what generation motor I'm working with as it needs a four barrel badly!

With Hooker headers and a true dual running into Raptors it's silly to feed it with a two barrel!

As it's got disc brakes up front it also makes sense it's a 73. That said, how hard would it be to fit a 72 nose. I like the sleaker look and might consider it if it's not too complicated.

Anyody know of a metric wheel size that would fit als an alternate to the 5x4.5" as I live in europe decent wheels are hard to come by...


TIA

David  

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/12/08
07:53 PM

ah well the fact that it was a /6 and now has a 318 could be the problem to your shift times. check to see if the motor mounts are a conversion mount from a /6 to a 318. if it was made to fit the motor may not be sitting square slightly tilted to the passenger side of the car thus tweeking the linkage up into the frame.  that would also be why they made a scoop for it other than just looks. if you don't have conversion mounts then the motor sits higher and doesn't allow for you to add a full size air cleaner. just something to check out as ive seen things rigged like that before.  

DQ81 DQ81
New User | Posts: 13 | Joined: 11/08
Posted: 11/13/08
12:33 PM

Dingo77:

Astute observation on the engine mounts...never thought of that.

I noticed the aircleaner on is very small, perhaps to facilitate the lack of clearance. I'm picking the car up tommorrow. After I get all the fluids topped up and everything like that I'll take some extensive pics of the whole vehicle incl. motor mounts etc.

I always like to get a good initial view of where a car is at when I buy it so I can track my progress.

Perhaps you could be so kind as to check back here and help me figure out if it's been rigged or not? I don't quite know what I'd be looking for..

thanks in advance

David  

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/13/08
12:58 PM

hey no problem david id be glad to help you out.  

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/13/08
01:02 PM

oh and one other thing ask the owner if they know the year of the motor thats in it and what it came out of.   joe  

DQ81 DQ81
New User | Posts: 13 | Joined: 11/08
Posted: 11/14/08
06:56 PM

Dingo 77, here's what I've got so far, also have a few more questions about a several things, perhaps you can help...if I need to post in other parts of the forum just say the word.

Based on the pictures and the slight tilt I think it's been rigged with the origional mounts as you said. Does this slight tilt hurt my trans? How do I get it right?

As far as shifting goes, it shift late from 2nd to 3rd, however if I lift of the throttle I can get it to shift most times and then cruise further.

I've noticed the vacume advance on de distributor isn't connected to anything. And that the choke is hooked up to the only port above the butterfly on the 2bbl.

Should I reroute the choke to a manifold vacuum and route the vacuum advance to the port above the butterfly on the carb? I thought that was how it's supposed to be setup. When I connected the vac advance to a manifold port today while running it immediatly stalled, so I figured I'd educate myself before messing anything up.

When I floor it I get a bunch of backfires and misfires, I can feel the power isn't there as it should be. Could this be attributed to the fact that the exhaust has headers and is 2.75" true dual but the motor is fed by a 2bbl. Kind of like a small passage in but a large passage out. My instincts tell me somethings up with the timing. What's ideal for a 318? Is the vacuum advance necessary for good power/daily driving behaviour?

Perhaps an 'idiots guide to setting timing on a 318', I'd be eternally gratefull.


Installing new plugs tommorrow, and would like to set the timing if possible, static for now but with vacuum advance.

Also some pics of the trans pan to identify it as a 904 and not a 727 just to be sure.

Also any ideas about these trim pieces? I was happy to find all the stuff for the windows in the trunk but where these guys go?
14112008833
14112008831
14112008834
14112008836
14112008840

She really is an ugly little lady at the moment, after the mechanics are taken care of, I'll get the cosmetics in order! Primer grey and bye bye homebrew useless scoop and wheels would be more than enough as long as she runs right!

Thanks again man.

David  

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/15/08
06:34 PM

it does look like it has been rigged. well you have 2 options 1 you can order a set of conversion motor mounts from Schumacher creative services just keep in mind if you do this that you get the mounts to what your long term goal for a motor will be. your second option and the one i would recommend is to find another 73' that was a v-8 car, you can then swap the K-member out (and if your car doesn't have front disk i would recommend swapping all that as well) as that will not only give you the correct mounts but also a spool type mount wich is much better.
As for the slight tilt hurting anything yes there are a number of things it could affect. the distributor cap, the trany linkage, all lines (trany and electrical) the oil filter, the motor, the transmission and the balance of the drive line. after awhile that slight tilt gets worse.
As for the shifting that can be due to the linkage not being adjusted correctly and or the linkage getting into a bind from the angle the motor is turning the transmission in.
For your vacuum  and carb problems i would suggest dumping the 2bbl and getting a 4bbl. as for the vac advance it much be hooked to the carb.
The backfires could be due to a number of things. the timing the fuel air ratio....
as i said before id dump the 2bbl and go with a 4bbl. i run a holly 650 dbl pumper with mechanical secondaries and have taken the choke assembly off, for the 318 i currently have. that should be plenty for you.
As far as setting the timing it really isnt too hard. all you need is a wrench that you can use on the distributor lock ring and a timing light. first clean off the timing degree marks on the drivers side front of the block next to the balancer (white nail polish on the indicator marks always helps to see them. next id hook up your timing light then start the car and shoot it to see where it is. if not on 0 then turn the motor off and loosen the nut that locks the distributor in place just enough so that you can turn the distributor. start the car back up and slowly turn the distributor till its on 0. form there you can slowly start advancing it forward until it pings (or no more than 6 or 7), then back it off a little. lock the nut back down and your done.
To identify your trany look up on the bell housing on the drivers side you should see the casting number there.
and for the trim i couldn't really tell what pieces those were perhaps you can take another pic of them showing the whole part. hope this helps ya get started. joe  

DQ81 DQ81
New User | Posts: 13 | Joined: 11/08
Posted: 11/15/08
07:14 PM

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the info man. I truly truly apreciate it.

As my car furtunately does have front discs and parts cars in Europe are close to non existant ( I live in the Netherlands...) I think I'll have to go the route of conversion motor mounts. If in the future I want to go a differnt route, I'll see then. I might only have the car a few years.

Do the conversion kits require welding?

For the time being I'll be more than happy to get 318 running properly and the driveline in order. Will the conversion mounts solve the issues that a donor K-member would solve? Does the fact that I have discs automatically mean I have the spool type mount you mentioned? I don't mind a little engine shake but the driveline really really affects the ride quality in my car.

As for the 4bbl, I'm looking around for a used unit. I've had a Holley dbl pump with mechanical secondaries on my 360 that was in my truck. I always felt it idled rich and was contemplating the Edelbrock route. I need a new intake either way...any pro's and cons in your experience with either brand for the 318? (intake and carb wise)

You mention 650cfm, can I get away with 750 if necessary (depending on what used units I find) with my Hooker headers and true dual setup? Or is the 650 the cutoff for overkill in you opinion?

So for timing we're talking 6-7 BTDC?

Here comes the ultimate noob question: Sitting in the car which is the #1 cylinder?

As for the trim I'm not even sure if it belongs with the car...I'll take some more pics at a later date. My priority now is getting the motor straight, timing right and a 4bbl on there.

BTW my duals don't have a cross/breather pipe. i.e. they aren't connected. This can lead to the occasional backfire also correct?

Thanks again, look forward to hearig from ya.

David  

DQ81 DQ81
New User | Posts: 13 | Joined: 11/08
Posted: 11/15/08
07:43 PM

BTW

I've yet to positivly ID the motor as the Hooker Performance headers are snug little buggers Smile

Here are a few more pictures of the motor mounts themselves.

I realized after looking at it carefully that the engine seems to sit pretty level, I don't know how obviously off kilter it would be with the wrong mounts. The aircleaner is tilted but that's relative to the carbi itself, i.e. it sits tilted on the carb.

In addition the engine mounts are new(er), I'd say around the time of the engine swap. The paint on them is in pretty good shape compared to K-memeber for instance. Is there surefire way to tell if I have conversion engine mounts? I think they might have done it right after all, or perhaps that's just wishfull thinking. I have no clearance isseus with the hood and the aircleaner has plenty of clearance, which I believe was mentioned as a symptom of improper enginen mounts (lack of clearance). I have the ugly scoop but it's fully closed off and nothing hits, it seems to serve only a cosmetic function...


What do you think based on these pics, do I need new mounts or are these the right ones?

Engine bay from front, keep in mind the aircleaner is tilted relative to the carb, look at the rocker covers relative to the radiator (I've done links because embedded images are chopped of on here):

foto
Foto 2

Passenger side enige mount:

foto 3

Foto 4

Drivers side engine mount:

Foto 5

Foto 6  

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/16/08
11:43 AM

no the conversion mounts are a bolt in item. and yes if you go with them they will do the same thing the other K-member would. they will center the motor, bring it down into the wheel wells a little more and straighten everything out.
as for your car having spool mounts the answer is no /6's did not have spool mounts due to the way they sat in the car. thus if your going for a V-8 motor you A) have to use conversion mounts or B)change the K-member out. since you have disk breaks already the conversion mounts would be the easy way to go.
yes a 750 would be fine for a carb though i wouldnt go any bigger than that unless your doing some big performance upgrades to the motor that would require that much more air and fuel.
the firing order is odd on the left even on the right (facing forward from inside the car) from front to back. depending on the manifold it may have the firing order stamped on it. and for the cross pipe im not 100% sure but i would think that if there was enough back presure build up in the pipes it would cause a backfire. i would suggest unbolting the pipes from the headers once you get the carb swaped and the timing down if it still back fires to see if that helps.

joe  

dingo77 dingo77
New User | Posts: 33 | Joined: 04/08
Posted: 11/16/08
11:56 AM

well based on the pics the mounts look like the ones that were on the motor from the other car but that may not be a bad thing. to me the motor does look tilted but that could just be the way things look from here. a sure fire way to tell would be to look under the car at the transmission namely where the transmission  meets the cross brace that would tell you if it is just a slight or no sag wich would be normal or a big twist wich would indicate the wrong motor mounts.  

MOPARYOUNGGUN MOPARYOUNGGUN
New User | Posts: 7 | Joined: 01/09
Posted: 02/01/09
02:51 AM

hey wats your plans for it u plan on a resto or wat if so i have a 73 aswell with factory interior no tear front seats and some tears in the rear and steering column shifter with stock steering wheel if anyone is interseted im gettin rid of the interior  

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